Southampton Banter Archive May 08 2014

 

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08 May 2014 23:05:01
Have had an idea about the whole "youth development thing, far from Dykes ridiculous proposal.

Change youth contracts in English football so a player cannot sign a professional contract with a club, until he has played let's say 5/10 games for 20 minutes or more. This means a player won't be given the contract purely so another team can't get hold of him. As soon as that youth contract runs out and he hasn't played, boom he's gone, this will save for example youngsters at Chelsea leaving the club at 22/23 by which time their development has slowed (we all know the biggest factor is 1st team football) but will leave the club if not signed at 18/19 so has plenty of time to find a new club to continue his development

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Fairly good idea, as it forces clubs to play developing players in order to keep hold of them. There is only a few issues with it.

Youth contracts don't deal with the players which the B team solution tries to. Those players between the ages of around 17-23. We would have to redefine the terms of youth contracts in general. Secondly after those 5/10 games there is nothing that would force the club to play them again, leading potentially to intermittent development.

Also it runs the risk of allowing the biggest clubs to run even more of a monopoly, as they'd be able to sign the brightest talents on compensation basis alone. The fact that they weren't playing games wouldn't force them to leave as they'd just repeatedly sign youth contacts. And for those players who aren't quite elite youth players get dropped into a very dangerous position where they might just bounce aimlessly between clubs on youth contracts for years, damaging their potential development.

Finally it'd be difficult to see how a loan system could operate in this way, as well as being potentially abused in loopholes.

It's a very nice idea and could be enforceable and practical, with a little refinement of course. Admittedly it's not enough on it's own to solve the vast amalgamation of problems English football faces. It's one of those things though, if it doesn't improve the situation it'll make it worse. And as much as I personally like the kind of approach this takes, I don't think it is actually a better solution then what is already on the table from the Commission. Regardless of the obvious inadequacies of the report, it's still firmly the best and most complete assessment and solution to the problem we've had in a very long time.

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The main problem with the B team solution is that the idea is the teams with better players will go up leagues so will experience a higher standard of football, but what if for example a player at Hull (just picking on them, they don't produce a great amount of talent) is destined to be fantastic, but he cant, because he's playing in a mediocre team, so he's essencially stuck playing league 2 football

The contract idea, players can sign pre-proffessional contracts so they can't be pinched, but the contract will only be signed if that game threshold has been reached before the youth one expires,
If not the club recieves a fine.

Clubs would only sign youth players they have an actual intent to use, so they wouldn't be bouncing between clubs.

Still applies to the loan system, will stop the abuse of it like Chelsea exhibit, look at Josh McHeran, on his 4th loan club, similar situation with Chalobah.

The non elite players, will leave a club early enough to continue thier development at a lower club, they may not fit at Arsenal, so they try a Championship side.

Also could have an incentive built in that say any player who after this is comissioned plays more than 50 professional games, the club he went pro with gets a sum of money from the FA depending what league the kid ends up in so say he began at Sunderland and reached the 50 mark there, the club gets say £100,000, but if he moves on before that to say Ipswich, Sunderland get say £60,000. But this money can only be used on improving the club's youth facilities. This will add incentive to clubs to produce the best players possible, to get money to invest!

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08 May 2014 22:13:22
Id like to add to my last post that I've read and posted things many times over the years on this site but never registered before but what I heard tonite upset me so I think all saints fans should know!

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08 May 2014 19:06:43
Okay, with my Saints biased head on here is my (slightly complicated) way of helping the England team.

I would have no limit to the amount of non English players that a club can sign. No breaking of any dodgy employment laws.

But the FA/PL/FL limit in all their competitions that only half the match day squad can be non English (9).

Again, the clubs then get rewarded in money (£1M) if a player aged under 21 completes the equivalent of say 15 FULL league matches (1350 mins)in a season. This player must have been with the club for at least 2 years and be eligible for the England team.

You with me so far.

So we would receive dosh for JWP and Luke but not Sam or Harrison.

The big clubs can still buy up the nippers but at least the money stays in this country. They would get nothing for bringing on an overseas player so then may encourage the London/NW brigade to develop there own. Winners all round unless you guys can see any issues.

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Again, this has the same problems as before (see Chilt Saints post). Half the match day squad having to be English still doesn't actually make any real progress. With clubs like Chelsea and City you'd just end up with a very English bench and the token England duo (Terry & Cahill, Hart & Milner). It's not actually a step up from the current set up.

Secondly the financial incentive. Well first point, who pays it? The EPL or the FA? The EPL wouldn't do it and the FA couldn't pay it. Let's play a hypothetical; 8 clubs in the league each play 2 under 21 England players (not unambitious, not too far off the current lot). That's £16 million the FA has to pay. It's a limited purse the FA has and ultimately you're taking from the pot that pays for grass-roots as well. You pull the money from one point and it goes from another. Imagine the headlines. Also there's the other simple point - £1 million in club football is not a lot of money. You'd either need to boost that money up or play a tonne of players for it to become viable - and most clubs just wouldn't risk it. It's not worth it. And even if you raised the incentive it still couldn't actually be paid for.

Most people seem to think the FA has some massive never ending coin-purse. They don't. They're really very limited, especially when you consider what they have to pay for in the first place; coaching and grassroots developments. The EPL has a pretty sizeable coin-purse, more then enough to cover your suggestion. But they aren't going to do it. They can't be forced to by anyone and they'd lose more then they'd gain so they wouldn't voluntarily do it.

It's a nice suggestion and it's nice to see some actual methodology applied. But the reward system is almost impossible to introduce. Too many issues of who pays, for what and why.

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^ the money should come from the other clubs in the league

for example - it should be agreed upon that half a match day squad should be made up of english players or maybe a minimum of say 5? english starters but a club should be able to choose to play more foreign players if they pay a fee for every foreign player over the 9 (or under 5 starters) - clubs won't want to continually pay to use foreign players especially if that money is going to other clubs who go above the 9 players in a squad

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Fairly certain that isn't legal Saintysaintsaint. Also who do they pay it to? Who's the arbiter? It would have to be the EPL as I don't think it would be within the FAs remit to affect this. The EPL just straight out wouldn't agree to it and nor would the clubs. You have to remember they can't actually force this to happen, it has to be voluntary and agreeable. And again, it doesn't solve the quality issue. That's what B teams and grassroots improvements is designed to do. Quality of players over mere quantity.

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TJ - I hear your point about money. The issue hear is the FA must get some balls and tell the PL who runs football. Surely the 'big clubs' must have to register with the FA to play in the PL. No pay no play. It seems the PL have their own train set and want to play with it. The PL should be a brand of the FA not the other way round. All monies from TV should go to the FA not the PL be it Sky, MOTD, ITV or overseas. Truly believe that the FA should run football from top to bottom not withstanding the motley crew in charge at the moment.

Any way rant over - can you tell me the relationship between the FA and PL and how it works.

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Great idea SaintySaintSaint :) you speak so much sense in every post

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Oh don't get me wrong Puddletown, I agree completely with who should be in charge - it would solve a lot of the issues. Trying to speak technically about the relationship between the FA and EPL is a minefield. The thing is one does not technically supersede the other. One cannot dictate the other. It helps to think of them as completely independent organisations, that on virtue of common interest, must work together. The EPL can only influence things within the EPL, obviously. They cannot recommend to the FA how best to solve issues such as the nationa team. They set the rules and regulations of the PL, with the FA being somewhat advisory. The FA is in charge of grassroots developments, the national teams and FA competitions most notably. This is why we see slightly different regulations between the FA cup and EPL. The best way to understand it is that the FA is a public institution and the EPL is a private institution. In order to regulate the EPL in a greater way the FAs powers would have to be expanded in law and its charter. This is unlikely to happen. As I said, it's a minefield and no matter how well you think you understand it you're always missing something. I would say ask the EDs as they are probably more knowledgeable then me, and can correct me on any mistake or add any other details.

The FA can't grow some balls and tell the PL who runs football, because technically speaking - they don't. As much as the FA sometimes comes up with good ideas, the EPL doesn't have to agree or follow through, leading to an impasse with no overarching authority to push it through one way or the other, other then the legislators and judiciary. Mostly though it just ends up with a compromise being reached which typically preserves the EPL favoured status quo.

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08 May 2014 18:26:22
A Modest Proposal

Just thought I might make a suggestion and add to the debate created by Mr Dyke's findings and plans that were announced today.

Firstly, I should point out that I have no experience in professional sports or indeed managing it. So it should therefore be unlikely that I could come up with anything that even remotely compete with proposals of Mr Dyke's panel of professionals.

It seems that there are too few English players in our top league and as a result our national team is struggling. We need to encourage teams to play their youngsters rather than scouring the world for foreign talent. Most suggestions to restrict foreign imports are quite negative and can often contravene employment law.

I would like to suggest something positive. Rather than punishing teams and telling them who they can or cannot pick or employ. Reward them for successfully bringing kids through (this is where the obvious Southampton bias comes through).

This season we have successfully demonstrated that bringing young, British players through at the right time can bring success, for the player, the club and our national team. Our reward for this? Dimwitted, fact less journos unsettling players with unfounded, vomit inducing gossip.

I would like to see some of the mountainous pile of premier league or FA cash being paid to clubs that provide players to ALL of the national teams. Money talks. If the money on offer for providing players to the national team was sufficient, it would force clubs to adopt the Southampton way.

The result? More English players competing regularly at the highest level and against great foreign imports (who are also vital to the development of our own players too).

Next season we would see the likes of Jake Hesketh's silky skills or the the defensive skills of Matt Targett up against international players. or we could send them to learn their trade against conference teams.

Rant over

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Whilst it is a very nice idea, the fact is it's both unrealistic, impractical and sometimes just unlawful.

First point to deal with is this idea that the FA has piles and piles of money. In the end they're a government institution, they have to be funded like everything else and unsurprisingly the government doesn't put it high on it's priority list. For the rest of it's money it sticks to traditional methods to raise revenues; Merchandise, ticketing and sponsorships. This again, doesn't actually add up to all that much, especially when you start thinking relatively. The FA then, could not throw money at the EPL clubs as reward for their playing English youth, at least not so much as to turn the heads of the top clubs, who are in reality the root of this problem.

Second, the Premier League, well though it has the money, has no motivation. The EPL/FA divide has been fairly well known. The FA tells the EPL all its wonderful ideas and the EPL smiles and nods politely before carrying on as though nothing has happened. The Premier League functions to make money, and they'll make it regardless of the nationality of players. In fact, it's general belief that increasing the amount of HG players required would probably lower quality and therefore profitability. For them it's completely counter-productive and again the FA hasn't enough money to provide adequate incentive.

Furthermore even if it were possible to properly reward clubs for bringing through youth, there is nothing to suggest that it would be English youth - the HG regulations are really quite loose, something which the commission has said it plans to tighten up.

To your point about the media, just as a point that needs saying, the legislation around print and digital journalism in regards to its regulation is minimal bordering on non-existent. Slander and libel are the only things that could stop such nonsense, but there's no grounds for it - you can't prove they're making it up if they can claim they have a source, which they don't have to prove. It's redundant.

Having read the Commission report (and I do advise everyone to give it a proper read through before passing judgement, the amount of people with complaints and questions that have already been addressed in the report is astonishing) I would say it's an improvement on the existing lot. Not saying it's the best plan there is, but it's the most achievable and practical solution anyone has come up with. An independent B league adds nothing new to what we already have, quotas are drastic and vastly impractical and don't actually address the 'quality' issue and loans don't actually help anyone really as they have a very limited success rate. Until someone comes up with something better I think this solution is probably the best.

Besides, Southampton B? Cheap tickets, competitive matches, exciting young English players. I'd definitely go and see that.

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08 May 2014 18:21:42
Hi all

Do we have any confirmed interests for the summer or is it all up in the air until confirmation of if poch is staying?

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08 May 2014 18:19:03
today has to be the first day where there's no saints papertalk no lallana here n luke shaw there, keep it up medias cheers!

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08 May 2014 16:36:11
Find it funny how Lallana's speech the other night makes some Liverpool fans think it was a goodbye speech.

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IOW Saint

They are hoping it was, we are so lucky not only to have a squad of talented players but that they all seem so normal, no diva`s.

COYS

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StMarys2014

Couldn't agree with you more

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08 May 2014 06:23:52
Summer Wish List

Obviously priorities are to keep the squad together. Only two I am slightly worried about is Shaw and Lallana.

If we sell Shaw I would be happy for him to leave for Chelsea if we could some how get a deal for Lukaku (unlikely with no European football) but you never know. Think Chambers and Clyne after all are good enough cover.

Would hate to see Lallana move to Liverpool (cant stand them) and he has been quoted previously saying he wanted to become SFC new MLT and stay with the club. But nowadays money talks so it will be a long summer with daily rumours.

Think we need to get another GK, CB, Winger and Striker. can't see any of the promoted clubs selling any players which rules out Ings and Schmeichal so heres who I would like to see.

GK - Lindegaard (surplus requirements at UTD? could be no1 within the season)
CB - Caulker (would be class & guarantee 1st team football)
Winger - Moses (forget his season with Liverpool as he has been poor and not had a run of games. the kid was brilliant for Wigan and could be reformed at Saints)
CF - Bony (Why not, could get us the goals to take us to the next level)

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Dont know why people rate caulker so much, much better options out there, wouldn't mind moses if price was right

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My picks are all players who we would have a lot of competition for, but if we could pull them off then we have instantly added quality on top of what we already have.

GK: Keylor Navas - supposedly Levante have accepted that he is leaving in the summer. Costa Rican international who has been very impressive this season, one to watch for at the World Cup.

CB: Caulker - I think he's been under-rated this season and would work very well with Lovren, only issue is that both don't have a hell of a lot of pace on the turn.

AM: Holtby - Not sure if Tottenham will want him to leave, and more than likely they'd want a player of our own in the deal, but I think he would work terrifically with Lallana.

Winger/Wide STR: Iker Muniain/Andre Ayew - Both players contracts end next season, so could potentially get them on the cheaper side. With similar attributes namely great pace and ball control, either could be used in place of Rodriguez on the left wing and then move to the right side when he returns.

CF: Javier Hernandez/Andre-Pierre Gignac - Either player could be a huge success for Saints with Poch's style of play.

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08 May 2014 05:43:33
Summer Wish List

Obviously priorities are to keep the squad together. Only two I am slightly worried about is Shaw and Lallana.

If we sell Shaw I would be happy for him to leave for Chelsea if we could some how get a deal for Lukaku (unlikely with no European football) but you never know. Think Chambers and Clyne after all are good enough cover.

Would hate to see Lallana move to Liverpool (cant stand them) and he has been quoted previously saying he wanted to become SFC new MLT and stay with the club. But nowadays money talks so it will be a long summer with daily rumours.

Think we need to get another GK, CB, Winger and Striker. can't see any of the promoted clubs selling any players which rules out Ings and Schmeichal so heres who I would like to see.

GK - Lindegaard (surplus requirements at UTD? could be no1 within the season)
CB - Caulker (would be class & guarantee 1st team football)
Winger - Moses (forget his season with Liverpool as he has been poor and not had a run of games. the kid was brilliant for Wigan and could be reformed at Saints)
CF - Bony (Why not, could get us the goals to take us to the next level)

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08 May 2014 00:19:33
Can you please remember to register and log-in when you are posting. Posts from unregistered users will just be deleted and in the near future won't even reach the editorial/moderation stage.

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